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Pros and Cons of Linux on the Desktop
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Chad Johnson
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July 28, 2011 - 8:40 am
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[quote="BruceCadieux":14aek4dk]
I don't think you have been really paying attention to Linux if you think it's progress has been slow for the past 20 years. It is the most versatile, most advanced operating system out there unencumbered by restrictive and archaic EULA's.[/quote:14aek4dk]

Not Linux progress, but adoption rates.

And I don't think you're being fair calling people who use what's on their computers 'sheeple'. I call them smart consumers using the software they purchased. Someone somewhere is waging a great win for Microsoft because it costs me more money to buy a computer without Windows than to buy one with it.

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Mindblower
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July 28, 2011 - 11:35 am
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When I tried my hand with this operating system it was the Ubuntu version. I'd heard of Fedora and PCLinuxOS, but those I spoke with recommended Ubuntu as being the most user friendly and compact.

What I find interesting (and might be confusing to others is) there are plenty of Linux versions to pick from (like there are different versions of Windows).

During the course of this (heated) debate, I took a look at openSUSE. This appears to be a massive package, bundled with lots of added software, and resulting in over a 4 gig download, while the others can be burnt onto a CD (about 800 meg).

After countless Internet searches, I stumbled across a pleasant site (that I'd say is a must read for those truly interested in Linux).

Continues at [url=http://distrowatch.com/:38ae40dw]DistroWatch.com/[/url:38ae40dw].

Personally, if the Linux community did some marketing, users would be able to purchase this open source free product from Computer stores, for a small cost (like under 50 bucks

"Light travels faster than sound;
That is why some people seem bright until you hear them speak"

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BruceCadieux
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July 28, 2011 - 7:39 pm
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You used to be able to buy Mandrake, Redhat, openSUSE, Linspire, and some useless utilities that were always years behind at Best Buy, Circuit City, and Staples. Then a massive marketing machine that used call Linux a "cancer" once again applied pressure, and coercion, via illigal abuse of monoploy powers and low and behold all those products disappeared from the shelves. But there was the other problem also of the fact that people who know about Linux don't want to pay $99.00 at a brick and mortar store when they can download for free, or CD's on line. http://en.opensuse.org/Buy_openSUSE

As for openSuSE being 4 gigs indeed it is, but unlike the zoobuntus you get to choose which desktop you want to use during installation, you get to choose what software will be installed and what won't if you want to do that, but best of all it is ten times the distribution that ubuntu is.

DistroWatch is not a good measure in anyway shape or form of what distro works well, it only counts who is clicking on what links at ----------------------distrowatch

But if for some reason you think a limited CD set is better than a full DVD or software than by all means download a openSUSE KDE, Gnome, XFCE, LXDE, Enlightenment, Amazon, Medical release, Educational release, http://en.opensuse.org/Derivatives

Or build you own distro with SuSE Studio http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:.....USE_Studio

Or perhaps you just want to do a net install, download a minmal boot disk and it will pull in everything from the internet during install, http://software.opensuse.org/114/en

Or perhaps you would like to try one of the other suse derivatives, like

MangOeS

Smeegol

Latest Marble Live CD

Linkat

http://en.opensuse.org/Derivat.....r_projects

Or perhaps you might want to try their enterprise solutions http://www.suse.com/products/desktop/

Personally I don't recommend live CD's for installs or even testing as they don't give you nearly the great experience you will get with a DVD install which once installed will be 1/4 the disk space that a install of windows 7 would be, and you get a hell of a lot more usefull software for free, not trialware, not 30 day trials, or crippled restricted pay for moreware, ........................Just great software, free of charge.

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David Hartsock
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July 28, 2011 - 11:18 pm
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[quote="BruceCadieux":25f9m1tj]You used to be able to buy Mandrake, Redhat, openSUSE, Linspire, and some useless utilities that were always years behind at Best Buy, Circuit City, and Staples. Then a massive marketing machine that used call Linux a "cancer" once again applied pressure, and coercion, via illigal abuse of monoploy powers and low and behold all those products disappeared from the shelves.[/quote:25f9m1tj]
Source that sites MS using coercion, or any other illegal method, to force BestBuy, Circuit City, or Staples to remove Linux from their shelves?

[quote:25f9m1tj]As for openSuSE being 4 gigs indeed it is, but unlike the zoobuntus you get to choose which desktop you want to use during installation, you get to choose what software will be installed and what won't if you want to do that,[/quote:25f9m1tj]
When it comes to downloading 4GB does make a difference. Not everyone has broadband, if fact a very small percentage of the overall population does. Even some that do really don't (who really things 768kb is broadband?) It would take days to download over dialup.

[quote:25f9m1tj]but best of all it is ten times the distribution that ubuntu is.[/quote:25f9m1tj]
Here's where things get confusing. You are obviously a fan of SUSE, but not once have you really stated why. If Linux is so great, and they are all based on the same kernel, why is SUSE so much better than all the others? If this is an MS vs. Linux debate I would think you would just be happy that people were trying Linux no matter what the distro.

[quote:25f9m1tj]Or perhaps you just want to do a net install, download a minmal boot disk and it will pull in everything from the internet during install, http://software.opensuse.org/114/en[/quote:25f9m1tj]
Again, not an option for dialup users.

[quote:25f9m1tj]Or perhaps you would like to try one of the other suse derivatives, like
MangOeS
Smeegol
Latest Marble Live CD
Linkat

Or perhaps you might want to try their enterprise solutions http://www.suse.com/products/desktop/[/quote:25f9m1tj]
Again with the SUSE.

[quote:25f9m1tj]Personally I don't recommend live CD's for installs or even testing as they don't give you nearly the great experience you will get with a DVD install which once installed will be 1/4 the disk space that a install of windows 7 would be,[/quote:25f9m1tj]
I have 1.5TB. A few GB isn't going to make or break me.

[quote:25f9m1tj]and you get a hell of a lot more usefull software for free, not trialware, not 30 day trials, or crippled restricted pay for moreware, ........................Just great software, free of charge.[/quote:25f9m1tj]
That is a matter of opinion. Good software? Maybe, but there is some great software that I use that has no open source equivalent.

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BruceCadieux
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July 29, 2011 - 6:43 am
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My pointing out that Suse has many different ways to get the distribution was simply in reply to the comment that it was "only available" on a 4 gig DVD. That is of course incorrect and misinformation.

You don't have to download only a 4 gig DVD, in fact you don't have to download anything at all, you can purchase a boxed version if that is what you like, or you can purchase their enterprise editions. Just simply stating the obvious for folks who haven't really looked beyond the things/rumors they hear.

Yes I like SuSE, No I do not like Ubuntu. Yes they use the same basic kernel. You see the beauty is they can change code, customize kernels the way they want, and contribute code back upstream to the kernel maintainers for review and inclusion. Some distributions do indeed customize kernels, RedHat, SuSE, Ubuntu being just a few that do. Some push their changes upstream and are major contributes...................SuSE RedHat.

Some do an outstanding job customizing kernels, others do not.

I am not so much a SuSE fan as I am a KDE fan, no one does better with making a desktop environment work with a distribution than openSUSE does, so that is what I use. I used RedHat until they made their major GUI change, then tried a few other distributions until I settled in with openSUSE. Again choice is great, if I don't like the direction, or the way a distribution does things I can simply choose another.

The major difference between distributions like openSUSE, Redhat and Ubuntu derivatives are the attention to detail, features, options, utilities, integration, stability, reliability, polish of the finished product. There are many more of course but those three are the major players.

RedHat/Fedora is a good distribution with an outstanding set of tools, utilities, and options. It is fairly easy to make it look, behave, and run the way I want it to.

Ubuntu uses the Gnome desktop environment, and as many times as I have tested the gnome waters it simply doesn't work well for me and the way I want my desktops to work, and behave, throw in the fact that over a several year period gnome and more so Ubuntu have progressively and steadily removed more and more utilities, options, features,and using anything outside of their "official" gnome desktop aka Kubuntu has a thrown together, unhinged, disconnected feel and a poor set of configuration tools that forces a mish mash of gnome things that simply do not work as well as a distribution that takes the time to put as much effort into each desktop environment they put together.

openSUSE does a lot of work to make all the desktop environments they offer work seamlessly without having to mix in a bunch of utilities from different environments to have a fully functional tool set. Their gnome and KDE desktop environments which ever you choose work equally well, and work like they someone really cared when putting them together. Because well, because they did care.

Well that is enough for now, I didn't realize that your "Linux" forum was such a hostile place for real Linux users to come to

I'll have peruse deeper into the Linux forum here to if I can find anything that actually has to do with "using" Linux outside of the the few Linux isn;t ready threads I first stumbled upon.

Ooops I forgot to ask what this wonderful, great, software is that simply can't be replaced by anything else?

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David Hartsock
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July 29, 2011 - 10:15 am
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[quote="BruceCadieux":3rlhr6m4]You don't have to download only a 4 gig DVD, in fact you don't have to download anything at all, you can purchase a boxed version if that is what you like, or you can purchase their enterprise editions. Just simply stating the obvious for folks who haven't really looked beyond the things/rumors they hear.

Yes I like SuSE, No I do not like Ubuntu. Yes they use the same basic kernel. You see the beauty is they can change code, customize kernels the way they want, and contribute code back upstream to the kernel maintainers for review and inclusion. Some distributions do indeed customize kernels, RedHat, SuSE, Ubuntu being just a few that do. Some push their changes upstream and are major contributes...................SuSE RedHat.

Some do an outstanding job customizing kernels, others do not.

I am not so much a SuSE fan as I am a KDE fan, no one does better with making a desktop environment work with a distribution than openSUSE does, so that is what I use. I used RedHat until they made their major GUI change, then tried a few other distributions until I settled in with openSUSE. Again choice is great, if I don't like the direction, or the way a distribution does things I can simply choose another.

The major difference between distributions like openSUSE, Redhat and Ubuntu derivatives are the attention to detail, features, options, utilities, integration, stability, reliability, polish of the finished product. There are many more of course but those three are the major players.

RedHat/Fedora is a good distribution with an outstanding set of tools, utilities, and options. It is fairly easy to make it look, behave, and run the way I want it to.

Ubuntu uses the Gnome desktop environment, and as many times as I have tested the gnome waters it simply doesn't work well for me and the way I want my desktops to work, and behave, throw in the fact that over a several year period gnome and more so Ubuntu have progressively and steadily removed more and more utilities, options, features,and using anything outside of their "official" gnome desktop aka Kubuntu has a thrown together, unhinged, disconnected feel and a poor set of configuration tools that forces a mish mash of gnome things that simply do not work as well as a distribution that takes the time to put as much effort into each desktop environment they put together.

openSUSE does a lot of work to make all the desktop environments they offer work seamlessly without having to mix in a bunch of utilities from different environments to have a fully functional tool set. Their gnome and KDE desktop environments which ever you choose work equally well, and work like they someone really cared when putting them together. Because well, because they did care.[/quote:3rlhr6m4]
Now, THAT is the type of information I wanted to hear - a well thought out and articulated response. It means so much more when there is a known reason to backup a claim.

[quote:3rlhr6m4]Well that is enough for now, I didn't realize that your "Linux" forum was such a hostile place for real Linux users to come to [/quote:3rlhr6m4]
Hostility is usually a two way street. Consider this... I know that this discussion has involved participants from the United States, Greece, Canada, and Australia (at least). Not everyone understands English and the subtleties of the language. I do, and I thought a few of the things you said were a little harsh toward MS and Windows users in general. Nothing that would have upset me by any means, but not everyone may have understood the same way. Your tone may not have translated well and your diehard stance may have appeared standoffish to some.

[quote:3rlhr6m4]I'll have peruse deeper into the Linux forum here to if I can find anything that actually has to do with "using" Linux outside of the the few Linux isn;t ready threads I first stumbled upon.[/quote:3rlhr6m4]
I truly hope you do. In fact I hope a thousand more knowledgeable Linux users do also. I would love to learn more about it myself and thoughtful discussions about the ins, outs, and merits for all to see would be a wonderful way to convince others to try it!

[quote:3rlhr6m4]Ooops I forgot to ask what this wonderful, great, software is that simply can't be replaced by anything else?[/quote:3rlhr6m4]
Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Lightroom, Stardock Fences, Photomatix, Roboform are some examples. Yes. I know there is software that will do some of the functions, but not the way I want it or they don't have the interoperability I need. Heaven forbid I have to give up Office!

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BruceCadieux
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July 29, 2011 - 11:49 am
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Well Kompozer, Gimp, Cinelerra, KDE desktop natively does what your strardock thing does, the would be Hugin..

Personally I do all my web site work in a text editor, but Kompozer works pretty well I hear, http://kompozer.net/

cinelerra http://cinelerra.org/

Gimp I am sure you have heard of, and while many photoshop users struggle with anything else the gimp is incredibly powerful, http://www.gimp.org/ or http://www.gimpshop.com/

Lightroom doesn't look to me to be anything special and digikam which is part of KDE would do, or showPhoto. http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/325

It's funny that you bring up StarDock Fences as it is obviously ripped off directly from the KDE desktop, as that feature is built into the KDE Desktop and has been a for years now.

Finally Photomatix web site FAQ says that software will run under Linux http://www.hdrsoft.com/support/faq_phot ... html#linux

Hugin combined with Gimp will handle your HDR image work. http://hugin.sourceforge.net/ http://www.gimp.org/

Now comes the part....................it isn't difficult, it is just different. When people are not willing to to try different, that doesn't mean the software is difficult, it means they are being difficult.

I can't help but keep chuckling about the Stardock fences things It is funny to see a windows user saying the would have to have something like that when it was ripped off directly from Linux.

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David Hartsock
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July 29, 2011 - 8:21 pm
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[quote="BruceCadieux":7qlg9skz]Personally I do all my web site work in a text editor, but Kompozer works pretty well I hear, http://kompozer.net/[/quote:7qlg9skz]
I prefer using the DW app over a text editor because it's a one-stop-shop. I've tried Kompozer and it doesn't preview (internally) well and doesn't handle multiple users working on the same content well. There is also the integration with Photoshop and the display of dependent files. I work with several sites and those owners use DW. Unfortunately, sometimes I have to guide them through things so I would have to convince them to change as well.
[quote:7qlg9skz]Gimp I am sure you have heard of, and while many photoshop users struggle with anything else the gimp is incredibly powerful, http://www.gimp.org/ or http://www.gimpshop.com/[/quote:7qlg9skz]
Yes, I've heard of Gimp and used it in the past. It doesn't offer the seamless integration with Dreamweaver and lightroom.
[quote:7qlg9skz]Lightroom doesn't look to me to be anything special and digikam which is part of KDE would do, or showPhoto. http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/325[/quote:7qlg9skz]
Again, seamless integration with photoshop and photomatrix. It is also missing automatic correction based on camera/lens used. I had a hard time finding a supported camera list.
[quote:7qlg9skz]It's funny that you bring up StarDock Fences as it is obviously ripped off directly from the KDE desktop, as that feature is built into the KDE Desktop and has been a for years now.[/quote:7qlg9skz]
Ripped off is a little strong. Every OS has borrowed features from another and we could go on about that for hours, but I do see that feature is available, which I didn't know.
[quote:7qlg9skz]Finally Photomatix web site FAQ says that software will run under Linux http://www.hdrsoft.com/support/faq_phot ... html#linux[/quote:7qlg9skz]
Yes, but there is no integration with Lightroom because there is no lightroom.
[quote:7qlg9skz]Hugin combined with Gimp will handle your HDR image work. http://hugin.sourceforge.net/ http://www.gimp.org/[/quote:7qlg9skz]
Nice to see.

[quote:7qlg9skz]Now comes the part....................it isn't difficult, it is just different.[/quote:7qlg9skz]
I didn't say it was difficult, per se. There are many differences, but the killer for me is the lack of cohesion between the apps that provide the functionality I use. Say I have GE appliances in my kitchen, but you tell me I should move to Kenmore so I buy a Kenmore refrigerator. I put the Kenmore refrigerator in the garage. It still works, but while I'm cooking I have to go the the garage every time I need something from the refrigerator. Not a good analogy, but the best I could do at the moment.
[quote:7qlg9skz]When people are not willing to to try different, that doesn't mean the software is difficult, it means they are being difficult.[/quote:7qlg9skz]
How, exactly, can you say someone is being difficult because they don't do things your way? The great thing about the computer and software industry at this point in time is that we have choice. I respect your choice to use Linux.

Now, with that said... Someone who doesn't have this much invested, time wise, would be wise to look at these alternatives.

I don't want to even think about how many hours(days) it would take to migrate my photo collection of 8 years!
[quote:7qlg9skz]I can't help but keep chuckling about the Stardock fences things It is funny to see a windows user saying the would have to have something like that when it was ripped off directly from Linux. [/quote:7qlg9skz]
Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week Folks. Don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses!

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BruceCadieux
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July 29, 2011 - 8:52 pm
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They got you right where they want you!

Locked in, and locked out of alternatives, BRAVO for them!

I never put all my eggs in one basket. If someone yanks the basket, it makes for an awful mess when the eggs hit the floor

I seriously try to avoid any solution that locks me in because one depends on this, and this depends on that, and that depends on other, and other depends on it, and it wants a pile of cash amounting to thousands of dollars. Looking at the prces on Adobes web site is enough to make me break out a piece of paper, and pencil hand draw things and take pictures of and just post them, because I could never in good conscience plunk down that much cash for any software. I could build a lot of computers for that much money and put together a nice little home rendering farm

That isn't to say it it's not a good approach for some people, but I would be hard pressed to suggest to my website customers that they plunk down a pile of cash for DW, when there are free alternatives available. They do little more than change text once I hand a site over to them.

I am not saying people are being difficult when they don't do things my way. I am saying different methods and software are not difficult, people who refuse any change are being difficult, that applies to just about anything. When it comes to computers, operating systems, and software, it is a constant learning adventure, for the people who refuse to change, one of two things happens, either they get left behind, or they make things difficult for themselves.

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GerryHatrick
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August 8, 2011 - 4:11 pm
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Hello folks,
Just got Linux Mint 11 Katya up and running on this desktop following rebuild due to failed hard drive. I had a spare 250gb drive so put Mint into my SandyBridge powered machine [yes its overkill]. But as a confirmed windows chappie I must say I am impressed, It does very well with all the mundane stuff, all the requisite drves installed without a fuss. Two minor niggles,1. Downloading anything into the system is a tad aukward [flash player etc] and 2.Boot time rather long for such a lightweight system.
However, considering that the Mint CD cost less than

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Chad Johnson
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August 23, 2011 - 9:40 am
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I set up a friend of mine with Ubuntu about a month ago. Left her my number, showed her how to navigate, where the web browser was, and set her off on her own. I got a few questions at first that I was able to talk her through how to do things. This past weekend she asked me to put Windows on her machine, which I did. I asked her to sum up why she didn't like Ubuntu -- and this is the answer I received:

[quote="Ziggie's Friend":3tarp7ek] It's clunky, doesn't work with many programs, and I can't set it up the way I want to. (i.e., I can't figure out how to use my own photos for the desktop or screen saver, I hate the fact that everything is icons rather than words etc., and it takes WAY too many clicks to do anything. I use both Mac and Microsoft on a regular basis, and have no problems with either of them.[/quote:3tarp7ek]

This is from a non-computer geek. She wants her computer to work when she uses it, not have to work to use her computer.

The above really sums up my feelings about Linux. It works...but it's not elegant. It functions...but it's a pain in the rear to do simple things sometimes. Linux is very powerful as a server OS and completely kills for lots of 'invisible' functions that users never see (routers, DVRs, etc). But as a day to day workhorse, my opinion is that it falls short of what the every day user needs.

--Zig

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Mindblower
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August 23, 2011 - 12:04 pm
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Yes Ziggie, but remember one can argue that because
[quote:1crjosfm]I use both Mac and Microsoft on a regular basis, and have no problems with either of them.
[/quote:1crjosfm]
she was already set in her ways. A person without previous exposure might feel differently, Mindblower!

"Light travels faster than sound;
That is why some people seem bright until you hear them speak"

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Chad Johnson
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August 23, 2011 - 12:37 pm
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[quote="Mindblower":3q8uq6kr]Yes Ziggie, but remember one can argue that because
[quote:3q8uq6kr]I use both Mac and Microsoft on a regular basis, and have no problems with either of them.
[/quote:3q8uq6kr]
she was already set in her ways. A person without previous exposure might feel differently, Mindblower! [/quote:3q8uq6kr]

I'm not denying that. But finding said unexposed person is nigh on impossible these days.

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Jim Hillier
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August 23, 2011 - 5:17 pm
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Familiarity does play a part, and it's quite likely that someone with no previous exposure to alternative operating systems would regard Linux as being the bees knees.......simply because they have never experienced anything better and there would be zero basis for comparison.

I thought Zig's friend summed it up very nicely.

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BruceCadieux
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August 23, 2011 - 6:24 pm
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[quote="Ziggie":39kd9sa3]I set up a friend of mine with Ubuntu about a month ago. Left her my number, showed her how to navigate, where the web browser was, and set her off on her own. I got a few questions at first that I was able to talk her through how to do things. This past weekend she asked me to put Windows on her machine, which I did. I asked her to sum up why she didn't like Ubuntu -- and this is the answer I received:

[quote="Ziggie's Friend":39kd9sa3] It's clunky, doesn't work with many programs, and I can't set it up the way I want to. (i.e., I can't figure out how to use my own photos for the desktop or screen saver, I hate the fact that everything is icons rather than words etc., and it takes WAY too many clicks to do anything. I use both Mac and Microsoft on a regular basis, and have no problems with either of them.[/quote:39kd9sa3]

This is from a non-computer geek. She wants her computer to work when she uses it, not have to work to use her computer.

The above really sums up my feelings about Linux. It works...but it's not elegant. It functions...but it's a pain in the rear to do simple things sometimes. Linux is very powerful as a server OS and completely kills for lots of 'invisible' functions that users never see (routers, DVRs, etc). But as a day to day workhorse, my opinion is that it falls short of what the every day user needs.

--Zig[/quote:39kd9sa3]

Well that would sum up many peoples feelings about Ubuntu and Gnome.

You really should venture outside of Ubuntu and try some real Linux distributions. In my honest opinion Ubuntu just plain sucks.

My computer works when I need to use it. I do not work on it, I do nothing to maintain it and my software works incredibly well. Best part is I didn't have to flush hundreds or thou=sands down the toilet on proprietary junk.

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